Curse

spandexninja · Aug 28, 2011, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

lolno. Lack of Hundred Blades/Vow of Strength means no instagibbing of groups. As the # of enemies increases Assassin DPS output grows at a linear rate while HB/VoS builds grow at N^2. There is no instance at which Assassins do "by far the most DPS".

#1 Death blossom spam > hundred blades / vow of strength
#2 Pious teardown derv > vow of strength derv
#3 axe > sword

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Least versatile melee class, seeing as how the ONLY build you will ever use unless you want to gimp yourself is Death Blossom spamming. Assassins with bows still suck, the fact that they suck .05% less than warriors or dervishes with bows is irrelevant.

Do enlighten me on how warriors and dervs act as tank for every end-game dungeon or how they are able to solo farm almost every boss / area in the game with minimal risk. I seem to be missing out!

Outerworld · Aug 28, 2011, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Do enlighten me on how warriors and dervs act as tank for every end-game dungeon or how they are able to solo farm almost every boss / area in the game with minimal risk. I seem to be missing out!

That just highlights the strength of SF, not the versatility of Sins in general.

spandexninja · Aug 28, 2011, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

That just highlights the strength of SF, not the versatility of Sins in general.

How does having a versatile skill that allows your class to do almost anything not make the class itself versatile?

At least sins can dps / AP call / tank / solo farm almost anything / always have a place in end-game PVE. If you play a derv or warrior, it's Enduring Axe, Pious Teardown, or gtfo.

Outerworld · Aug 28, 2011, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

How does having a versatile skill that allows your class to do almost anything not make the class itself versatile?

At least sins can dps / AP call / tank / solo farm almost anything / always have a place in end-game PVE. If you play a derv or warrior, it's Enduring Axe, Pious Teardown, or gtfo.

Because SF is the only build that they get used for in High-End PvE. That's not versatile at all. Having said that Warrs/Dervs are the same, it's 100b/VoS or nothing but for general PvE they both tower over Sins in regards to versatility.

Anaraky · Aug 28, 2011, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

#1 Death blossom spam > hundred blades / vow of strength

When facing small groups, sure. Facing large ones, not even close.

Quote:

#3 axe > sword

No. WE Axe is a pretty mediocre build. It does okay-ish damage and has easy access to Deep Wound and that's all. DS has SY! spam and 100b has insane AoE damage.

Quote:

Because SF is the only build that they get used for in High-End PvE. That's not versatile at all. Having said that Warrs/Dervs are the same it's 100b/VoS or nothing but for general PvE they both tower over Sins in regards to versatility.

This. In general PvE the only build an Assassin can use without gimping himself is some variance of a DB bar. Nothing else will produce decent results, assuming we aren't going tank. I cannot speak for Dervishes but Warriors have the option of going pretty much any melee weapon and do decent, sometimes with several builds per weapon. WE Scythe, WE Dagger, ES, DS, 100b, WE Axe etc, just take your pick.

Kunder · Aug 29, 2011, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Running VoS builds with my Derv, I routinely solo entire HM groups. By that I mean, I teleport in and kill the entire group with my first attack before my party can even catch up to cast their first spells. HB builds on a warrior are almost exactly the same, trading a bit of damage for the ability to use SY.

The other thing somewhat annoying about assassins is that their AoE is a bit worse. Its still adjacent, but centered on the enemy. Due to this it doesn't hit enemies on your sides or behind you which are adjacent to you but not your target, and having melee enemies coming at you from a different side is a much more frequent occurrence than a caster just randomly deciding to walk up behind your target.

As far as tankiness goes, its an absolutely useless quality outside of SCs. Honestly, my warrior wouldn't notice a difference frenzying with standard 60 AL caster armor and no self buffs. The reason being that in HM prot spirit is a given for melee. All other defense pales in comparison.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

When facing small groups, sure. Facing large ones, not even close.

How can 86 armor ignoring damage to all adjacent targets every 3 seconds do LESS than 24 slashing damage to all adjacent targets every 0.9 seconds? Even in normal mode, death blossom would still be better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

No. WE Axe is a pretty mediocre build. It does okay-ish damage and has easy access to Deep Wound and that's all. DS has SY! spam and 100b has insane AoE damage.

I can't help you with your 100b fantasies :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

This. In general PvE the only build an Assassin can use without gimping himself is some variance of a DB bar. Nothing else will produce decent results, assuming we aren't going tank. I cannot speak for Dervishes but Warriors have the option of going pretty much any melee weapon and do decent, sometimes with several builds per weapon. WE Scythe, WE Dagger, ES, DS, 100b, WE Axe etc, just take your pick.

All of those builds (only 2 of which are even considered viable, and 1 of which is considered meta) do mediocre dps and have no place whatsoever in high-end PVE. Sins have 1 meta build for general PVE and 1 meta build that can do EVERYTHING ELSE. A dagger sin can do everything a War or Derv can do but better, and a SF sin can accomplish things that warriors and dervs can't even dream of doing. 1 core build (tool) that can accomplish many things perfectly matches the definition of versatility.

-----------------------------------------------------------

ver·sa·tile (vûrs-tl, -tl)
adj.
1. Capable of doing many things competently.

ver·sa·tile [vur-suh-tl or, especially Brit., -tahyl]
adjective
1.
capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks, fields of endeavor, etc.: a versatile writer.
2.
having or capable of many uses: a versatile tool (build).

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

How can 86 armor ignoring damage to all adjacent targets every 3 seconds do LESS than 24 slashing damage to all adjacent targets every 0.9 seconds? Even in normal mode, death blossom would still be better.

Damage total when using WWA with 100b = D*N^2.
Damage when using DB = D*N.
D is damage and N is number of mobs.

No matter how low D is, given a large enough number on N N-squared will always be enough to compensate. I don't know how good the education-system is where you are from but anyone that studied even the slightest algebra should take that like a given.

Let's assume 100b does 14 damage per tick after armor, a pretty fair assumption in my (pretty extensive) experience. Sometimes it will do more, sometimes it will do less. Anyway, if we have six mobs grouped 100b will add (14*6^2=504) damage on each WWA. DB will do (86*6=516) AoE damage. However when using FGJ! or any similar adrenaline boosting skills WWA can be used more often then DB (Enraging Charge->FGJ!->WWA->S&M-slash->Autohit->WWA etc) not to mention 100b's AoE is bigger.

Keep in mind that was the damage 100b adds on WWA only. While under the influence of a 33% IAS it takes 0.8911 seconds for each hit while using a sword. Let's say a 100b Warrior can use WWA->S&M-slash->Autohit in three seconds. The damage 100b adds then is (D*N^2)+(D*N*2)+(D*N). Once again, with the same variables as above: (14*6^2)+(14*6*2)+(14*6)=756. However we forgot to add in the damage WWA does in itself. Let's assume the only buff we have is rank 14 SoH (I run rank 16 myself, but I don't want Assassins to look too bad in comparison), which should be a given on a melee. The damage WWA does then is (6*(20+22) = 264) armour-ignoring damage. Not including base damage BTW. 756+264 = 1020.

In conclusion: Assassins does roughly 516 AoE damage if they are in position to hit six mobs with DB in one cycle, which is around three seconds.
100b does roughly 1020 AoE damage using a WWA->S&M-slash->Autohit combo which takes around three seconds while under a 33% IAS.

Warriors does around 100% more AoE damage when faced with six mobs. That number would have been higher if there where more mobs and lower if it were less.

Quote:

I can't help you with your 100b fantasies :/

Yeah you are right, 100b is so awful. Only roughly twice the AoE damage a DB Assassin has on a medium sized mob. Not to mention synergy with skills such as MoP and Barbs.

Quote:

All of those builds (only 2 of which are even considered viable, and 1 of which is considered meta) do mediocre dps and have no place whatsoever in high-end PVE. Sins have 1 meta build for general PVE and 1 meta build that can do EVERYTHING ELSE. A dagger sin can do everything a War or Derv can do but better, and a SF sin can accomplish things that warriors and dervs can't even dream of doing. 1 core build (tool) that can accomplish many things perfectly matches the definition of versatility.

You considered 100b bad, your judgement of builds is fairly irrelevant at this point.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

assuming we're always surrounded by 6 mobs and mobs never run away from aoe, and 100b actually does 14 damage which is being very generous

*sigh* this is what I meant about your 100b fantasies. When I ask how 100b does more than death blossom, I'm asking for when you're actually playing the game, not when hitting training dummies. btw if you're gonna look at numbers, don't randomly add an 8 adrenaline attack and completely ignore the rest of the assassin combo. Unless you're playing on normal mode, mobs will be running away the moment you hit them with aoe (100blades). Yes you'll slightly more dps than a sin if 6 mobs are frozen around you in normal mode... and this proves that warriors are good damage dealers how? You do realize that when your perfect fantasy mob is dead, the assassin will still finish the battle much faster when you have to kill the healer and caster mobs? When you're actually playing hard mode (which the OP seems to be interested in), casters are always the primary targets, making your '6 adjacent targets' situation fairly pointless.

Let's look at a real combat situation where, for some reason, 6 mobs are perfectly bunched around you:
-Assassin casts [Jagged Strike (0.25s) > Fox Fangs (0.25s) and Death Blossom (1s)] which results in a combo that does an absolute minimum of 570 damage in 1.5 seconds.
-Warrior attacks once once (12+84 damage 0.9s) > twice (12+84 damage 0.9s, 1 mob runs away) > thrice (12+70 damage 0.9s, 2 mobs run away) > WWA (24*3 + 14*3^2)=198 damage in 1 second) which results in a combo that takes 3.7 seconds and does 472 damage assuming we are either in normal mode or being being very generous in terms of armor values. (realistically against a group of melee mobs with 118 armor in hard mode, HB would be doing 9 damage)
And even then, this is assuming that you're starting a battle adjacent to 6 mobs which almost never happens even if you have a perfect pull and catch all the melee mobs on a corner.

Well anyways... thanks for explaining how 100b warriors can potentially do more damage than sins in a perfect situation that happens in about 1% of the battles you'll encounter throughout Guild Wars. I guess sins still do more dps in 99% of combat? Who woulda figured?

You've basically proven that warriors (especially 100b sword warriors) pull pathetically low dps in a actual combat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

That number would have been higher in my fantasy land and lower if we were actually playing Guild Wars.

I honestly can't tell if you really believe that warriors are better damage dealers than assassins...

--------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

There is no way to literally kill an entire group with your first attack period.

fix'd

Kunder · Aug 29, 2011, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Spandexninja, don't even try to argue this. VoS/HB builds absolutely decimate groups. There is no other way to literally kill an entire group with your first attack unless that attack is an AoE one buffed with VoS or HB.

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

*sigh* this is what I meant about your 100b fantasies. When I ask how 100b does more than death blossom, I'm asking for when you're actually playing the game, not when hitting training dummies. btw if you're gonna look at numbers, don't randomly add an 8 adrenaline attack and completely ignore the rest of the assassin combo. Unless you're playing on normal mode, mobs will be running away the moment you hit them with aoe (100blades). Yes you'll slightly more dps than a sin if 6 mobs are frozen around you in normal mode... and this proves that warriors are good damage dealers how? You do realize that when your perfect fantasy mob is dead, the assassin will still finish the battle much faster when you have to kill the healer and caster mobs? When you're actually playing hard mode (which the OP seems to be interested in), casters are always the primary targets, making your '6 adjacent targets' situation fairly pointless.

Alright, let's refute your points once more.

#1: Enraging Charge + FGJ! = 8 Adrenaline.
#2: By the time mobs would run away they are already either dead or almost dead, making the point moot. I don't know about you but I don't run seven healers.
#3: Just because you are unable to ball groups doesn't make everyone unable to do it. I never said Warriors where easier to play.

Edit: Just went to an EotN area (HM obviously) and 100b did 10 on the melee foes and 16 on the casters. Wow my estimate was 14 instead of the 13 we'll get if we average those numbers. Totally going to change everything.

Quote:

Let's look at a real combat situation where, for some reason, 6 mobs are perfectly bunched around you:
-Assassin casts [Jagged Strike (0.25s) > Fox Fangs (0.25s) and Death Blossom (1s)] which results in a combo that does an absolute minimum of 570 damage in 1.5 seconds.
-Warrior attacks once once (12+84 damage 0.9s) > twice (12+84 damage 0.9s, 1 mob runs away) > thrice (12+70 damage 0.9s, 2 mobs run away) > WWA (24*3 + 14*3^2)=198 damage in 1 second) which results in a combo that takes 3.7 seconds and does 472 damage assuming we are either in normal mode or being being very generous in terms of armor values. (realistically against a group of melee mobs with 118 armor in hard mode, HB would be doing 9 damage)
And even then, this is assuming that you're starting a battle adjacent to 6 mobs which almost never happens even if you have a perfect pull and catch all the melee mobs on a corner.

Every Assassin cycle takes 3 sec to repeat, sure you might be able to do your 1-2-3 combo in 2~ sec but then you'll stand waiting for cooldowns. 3s cycles are a better rule of thumb for math, especially since you'll most likely have to use your combo more then once.

By the way, your understanding for the Warrior class is laughable. Try playing one before you make wild claims that are 100% false.

Quote:

Well anyways... thanks for explaining how 100b warriors can potentially do more damage than sins in a perfect situation that happens in about 1% of the battles you'll encounter throughout Guild Wars. I guess sins still do more dps in 99% of combat? Who woulda figured?

1% of the battles for you maybe, not for me.

Quote:

You've basically proven that warriors (especially 100b sword warriors) pull pathetically low dps in a actual combat

Yes, if you are bad at the game and thus being unable to create a ball of the size 4+.

You can argue all you want, math doesn't lie. 100b is vastly superior to DB in regards to AoE damage.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 12:42 PM // 12:42

I give up... apparently mobs either don't run away from AOE or 100 blades is insta-gibbing mobs with 9 damage ticks against 118+ armor enemies, and every combat situation in Guild Wars involves at least 6 melee mobs and terrain that allows for a perfect ball where the melee mobs couldn't possibly get away.

Math doesn't lie, but you sure do.

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

I give up... apparently mobs either don't run away from AOE or 100 blades is insta-gibbing mobs with 9 damage ticks against 118+ armor enemies, and every combat situation in Guild Wars involves at least 6 melee mobs and terrain that allows for a perfect ball where the melee mobs couldn't possibly get away.

Math doesn't lie, but you sure do.

In general, grouped mobs die within 2-4 seconds after I get to them so no: they don't run away. They don't have time to. And from where are you getting I only hit warriors? Because I don't. You really don't need to actively try to group casters in most areas, they are usually pretty tight anyway. Even if it is only three or four 100b does great damage.

Translation on your post: I was wrong and are trying to save face by spewing bullshit.

Also, six was an arbitrary number. You really think it matters if it is six or five or four? It was a 100% damage difference dude.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

In general, grouped mobs die within 2-4 seconds after I get to them so no: they don't run away. They don't have time to. And from where are you getting I only hit warriors? Because I don't. You really don't need to actively try to group casters in most areas, they are usually pretty tight anyway. Even if it is only three or four 100b does great damage.

Translation on your post: I was wrong and are trying to save face by spewing bullshit.

I never said you only hit warriors. You're the one who claimed that having 6 mobs balled up is a realistic situation, and the only situation where you'd have a ball of 6 is against melee mobs, aka high ass armor.

As you kindly showed us in your equation, if it's 3 or 4 100b does pathetic damage compared to death blossom.

See I really can't argue against you when math has told us that you can't possibly kill a group of 6 even after 3.7 seconds, yet you're claiming that your groups are dying within 2-4 seconds. We must be playing different games, because mobs run from AOE after the first second (unless you only play normal mode, which I'm starting to suspect). Math doesn't lie, it's just you.

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

I never said you only hit warriors. You're the one who claimed that having 6 mobs balled up is a realistic situation, and the only situation where you'd have a ball of 6 is against melee mobs, aka high ass armor.

As you kindly showed us in your equation, if it's 3 or 4 100b does pathetic damage compared to death blossom.

Alright, let me do the math for you.

Warrior AoE damage: (13*4^2)+(13*4*2)+(13*4)+((22+20)*4) = 540
Assassin AoE damage: 86*4 = 344

This is the consistent damage they would do over a 3 second timeframe assuming SoH rank 14 while facing four mobs.

Warrior AoE damage: (13*3^2)+(13*3*2)+(13*3)+((22+20)*3) = 366
Assassin AoE damage: 86*3 = 258

Same variables, three mobs.

Quote:

See I really can't argue against you when math has told us that you can't possibly kill a group of 6 even after 3.7 seconds, yet you're claiming that your groups are dying within 2-4 seconds. Math doesn't lie, it's just you.

As I said, I don't run seven healers. Two mesmers, RoJ, Splinter Weapon and Ancestors Rage and possibly MoP all contribute as well. My point was that the mobs doesn't have time to run away from that initial burst. Not that I could instagib them solo.

And no, the only time I play normal is when I help out friends. I have Leg VQ, Leg Guardian, maxed Master of the North title etc etc. Now please stop trying to undermine my arguments by saying I play low tier PvE.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Why did you suddenly change your equation? I like how you compare a warrior's full combo + strength an honor with an assassin's death blossom combo, except you took out the combo and the strength of honor for the assassin lol. You seem to really like changing the rules at your own convenience, so here's are some real numbers.

Going by your original equation
Warrior AoE damage: HB(13*4^2)+WWA((10+19)*4) = 324 (3.7seconds) (87.6dps)
Assassin AoE damage: (10+bleed)+(10+33)+(10+86*4) = 375.5 (1.5seconds)
(250dps party) (125dps solo)

Warrior AoE damage: (13*3^2)+((10+19)*3) = 204 (3.7seconds) (55.1dps)
Assassin AoE damage: (10+bleed)+(10+33)+(10+86*3) = 258 (1.5seconds)
(172dps party) (86dps solo)

And if you really want to compare strength of honor numbers... well let's just say assassins attack really quickly

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

Why did you suddenly change your equation? Did all that calculation make it too hard to include the rest of the assassin combo, which is kinda required to cast death blossom?

Going by your original equation
Warrior AoE damage: HB(13*4^2)+WWA((10+19)*4) = 324 (3.7seconds) (87.6dps)
Assassin AoE damage: (10+bleed)+(10+33)+(10+86*4) = 375.5 (1.5seconds)
(250dps party) (125dps solo)

Warrior AoE damage: (13*3^2)+((10+19)*3) = 204 (3.7seconds) (55.1dps)
Assassin AoE damage: (10+bleed)+(10+33)+(10+86*3) = 258 (1.5seconds)
(172dps party) (86dps solo)

And now you've resorted to pulling numbers out your ass :\

I didn't change the equation, and I only did the numbers for AoE damage which was what we were discussing.

My original equation was this for warriors: (100b damage on WWA)+(100b damage on S&M-slash)+(100b damage on one autohit)+WWA damage. You can repeat this in three second cycles.
My equation on Assassins: (AoE damage on DB). You can repeat this in three second cycles.

Where is that wrong, point it out to me.

By the way, your equation is a joke. Here are some faults;

#1: You only measured the damage upfront, not in any way which can by cycled and thus creating an influx on the Assassin side.
#2: Included damage from single-target stuff on the Assassin as well in a discussion about AoE damage.
#3: Excluded everything on the Warrior side except 100b damage on WWA and WWA damage.
#4: You did the math assuming it takes 3.7 seconds to cast WWA.

If you want to do a calculation on AoE + single-target DPS that is fine, but at least do it right.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

My original equation was this for warriors: (100b damage on WWA)+(100b damage on S&M-slash)+(100b damage on one autohit)+WWA damage.
My equation on Assassins: (AoE damage on DB).

#1: You only measured the damage upfront, which must be why you stated the sustained dps over 3 seconds, how clever of you and inept of me
#2: Included damage from single-target stuff on the Assassin as well in a discussion about AoE damage, which makes sense because the assassin's AOE damage requires single target damage.
#3: Excluded everything on the Warrior side except 100b damage on WWA and WWA damage. Exclusion is something that I would never do, which is why I only calculate death blossom damage and only add strength of honor for the warrior. Fair is fair
#4 You did the math assuming I somehow had 33% increased attack speed without flail and took 3 hits to build 6 adrenaline. What a generous person you are because the warrior numbers would certainly be lower if you hadn't done that.

I fixed your post, but I left just a tiny teeny bit of hypocrisy there. If you want fair comparisons then you may want to take your own advice. (but I welcome you to make a fair comparison and see that the warrior numbers are still lower)

And for the love of god don't tell me that you start a battle with 8 adrenaline because you cast your cancel stance at the beginning of the battle.

Anaraky · Aug 29, 2011, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

I fixed your post, but I left just a tiny teeny bit of hypocrisy there. If you want fair comparisons then you may want to take your own advice. (but I welcome you to make a fair comparison and see that the warrior numbers are still lower)

And for the love of god don't tell me that you start a battle with 8 adrenaline because you cast your cancel stance at the beginning of the battle.

We were discussing AoE damage strictly. You said DB spam does more AoE damage then a 100b Warrior. Does Jagged add AoE damage? No. Does Fox Fangs? No. Does the single-target portion of DB? No. Only the AoE portion of DB adds AoE damage, and that doesn't scale with SoH. It is a fixed number. Thus the only AoE damage the Assassin does is the AoE portion of DB which is 86*Targets which is what I calculated on. How am I excluding any AoE damage there?

I didn't include the single-target damage from S&M-slash nor the Autohit either, only the 100b part.

The fact that the combo should be maintainable is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing obvious. Otherwise I can say that WWA takes 0.9s to cast and does ((13*4^2)+((22+20)*4))/0.9 = 427~ DPS on four targets. It might be true but only in that timeframe, which makes it irrelevant. Jesus Christ, have you studied math like ever?

And yes I use Enraging Charge upfront. Never been a problem and it does produce higher burst.

spandexninja · Aug 29, 2011, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraky

You said DB spam does more AoE damage then a 100b Warrior. Does Jagged add AoE damage? No. Does Fox Fangs?

Translation: I realize that assassin's are vastly superior damage dealers so I'm going to change the rules of Guild Wars so that you can't include the ludicrous attack speed or the required combo that builds up the Death Blossom, and I'll make it so the warrior has a random buff for no reason whatsoever.

I don't even understand why you're arguing anymore if you'd rather argue in the context of a special Warrior 100blades Test Lab with integrated 'Fk Assassins™' technology than an actual battle in Guild Wars. When I said DB spam sin does more AOE dps than a 100b warrior, I assumed that the reader would have a level of mental competence and assume that I was talking about actual battles and not impossible situations (such as instantly casting death blossom without a combo).

Btw I bet that a dagger sin with Strength of Honor and Order of Pain does more dps than a warrior using a bow with 0 Marksmanship.